Flagler Estates Concerned Citizens, Inc.

To sit back hoping that someday, someway, someone will make things right is to go on feeding the crocodile, hoping he will eat you last--but eat you he will.: Ronald Reagan

Flagler Estates Concerned Citizens, Inc.
Hastings, FL 32145
Administrator@flaglerestatesconcernedcitizens.org

TIMELINE

YOU DECIDE!

According to DEP on September 3^rd, 2009, the crux of the issue is if water quality standards apply to 16-Mile Creek and is it a water of the state. The decision to be made is one of jurisdiction. This Timeline refers to DEP’s receipt of the relevant jurisdiction information.
1 - July 9^th FDEP meeting in held. Jan Mandroup-Poulsen informs Mr. Kelter that 16-Mile Creek is a Class 3 Waterway and there is legal precedents.
2 - At the August 6, 2009 FERWCD BOS Meeting, Mr. Kelter announces that Jackie Van Horn discovered “SOMETHING” that could change “everything”. It is said the discovery was made the first of August.
3 - At the August 20^th, 2009 FERWCD BOS Meeting, there is a teleconference with Wayne Flowers with whom Mr. Kelter has already been consulting. Wayne Flowers is hired.
4- August 31, 2009 Mr. Kelter is given a URL address to post materials by Xueqing Gao - Environmental Manager.
5- September 1, 2009 at 7:20 AM, Jan Mandrup-Poulsen requests notification when Mike Kelter gets his data posted.
6- September 1, 2009 @11:08 AM Mr. Kelter notifies Jan Mandrup-Poulsen of the folder creation. For “their reading pleasure” (quote) included is a copy of the Water Control Plan. (QUESTION - Which one???)
7- September 2^nd - FDEP Attorney Betsy Hewitt receives the pile of data. (WE STAND CORRECTED. Everyone else at DEP got the information a half-day earlier.)
9- September 3^rd, FDEP Meeting. FDEP refers to the lateness of the submission. Kelter apologizes profusely and accepts responsibility. This is recorded.
10 - September 10^th FERWCD BOS meeting. The engineer report is unclear regarding the outcome of the FDEP meeting. There is mention of FDEP not reviewing the information provided in advance but not the fact that DEP only received it on September 1^st.
11- September 17^th, 2009 - Kathy Fisher wrote FDEP because the outcome of the sovereign/severed jurisdiction issue is unclear in Mr. Kelter’s Engineer Report.
12 - FDEP contends that, indeed as they have been saying since July 9^th FDEP Meeting, we are part of Florida’s waters - Class 3. In other words the “new information” and hiring of the attorney did not make a difference.
Other matters are addressed by DEP in response to Kathy‘s questions.. (separate issues)
13- September 17^th, 2009 BOS Meeting - the issue of the late submission arises. Although there were witnesses to the contrary, the FERWCD Staff and Board say it did not happen.
14- September 24^th, 2009, Candy Nelson writes DEP. - It is clarified that the information was received on September 1, 2009 . Flagler Estates are indeed “waters of the state”. Following added review, the Department’s opinion remained unchanged.
15- September 29^th, 2009 - Kathy Fisher again writes FDEP to further clarify the time and nature of the information put forth by the District. QUOTE” …Mr. Kelter continued to work diligently right up to the time of the adoption hearing trying to locate files, but we did not successfully receive them until September 1^st. I have attached copies of the last two e-mails from Mr. Kelter prior to the hearing, indicating we had gotten some of his materials back in July, but not the ones germane to the question on jurisdiction.”
Other issues were also discussed with FDEP.
BY THE WAY…FDEP responds to e-mails within hours.
FDEP charge 80 cents for meeting CD recordings.
FDEP promptly complies with information requests and have been a pleasure to deal with.
_______________________________________________________________________
THE OTHER VERSION OF EVENTS

TO: Flagler Estates Board of Supervisors
FROM: Mike Kelter, P.E.
DATE: September 10, 2009
RE: Chief Engineer’s Report: September 10, 2009
The following report is presented to the Flagler Estates Board of Supervisors to provide
information regarding actions taken by the Legacy Civil Engineers, Inc on behalf of
Flagler Estates Road and Water Control District and to request actions from the Board as
required.
USIXTEEN MILE CREEK TMDL:
On September 3, 2009, Wayne Flowers (Lewis, Longman & Walker), the District
Manager, and the District Engineer attended a public hearing at FDEP in Tallahassee
regarding the Sixteen Mile Creek TMDL. Prior to attending the meeting, information was
submitted to FDEP regarding the comments that would be presented in the public hearing.
Please visit the District site for the rest of this report. http://www.ferwcd.org/CER_0091009.pdf
You decide.

Follow-up Public Record Conversation with DEP

Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 2:31 PM
To: Mandrup-Poulsen, Jan
Subject: Flagler Estates

Greetings again from Flagler Estates!

Forgive me for again approaching you with so many questions. The Flagler Estates Road and Water Control District tends to be less than forthcoming with information, causing us to seek information from other sources.

In our last correspondence, I inquired about a "Sniff Test". Mr. Kelter referred to it at the September 3, 2009 meeting in Tallahassee. He was talking about an alternate explanation for our low dissolved oxygen levels aside from Nitrogen and Phosphorus levels. He also mentioned and interchanged the terms sulfite and sulfate. Can you tell me what this Sniff Test is and how it is quantified? My resources are not familiar with it. I have requested copies of the documentation sent to DEP about this matter. My information request has not been met by the District as of yet.

This question may be redundant. The District Staff claims they sent DEP their information approximately two weeks prior to the September 3rd Meeting. The documentation from your office, as well as the conversation on the recording of the September 3rd meeting, indicates information reached your office on September 1st, 2009. The DEP Attorney received the information on September 2nd, necessitating the delay on the decision until September 8th. Did the FERWCD send you the information 2 weeks prior or 2 days prior to September 3rd, 2009?

In your e-mail on September 1st from Mr. Kelter, he speaks of posting information to your ftp site. WBID 2589 DEP Hearing Information. Mr. Kelter states "For you information and reading pleasure, we also posted a pdf copy of our District's Water Control Plan". I have been unable to get to this information on your website. Can you tell me if the FERWCD Water Control Plan is the older, valid one or the one submitted by Mr. Kelter in June of 2008 that has not been approved or accepted by the Board nor has it undergone a second Public Hearing?

Please know that the residents of Flagler Estates are glad for any accurate information we can find and grateful for your insight. We allso appreciate that your time is quite valuable.

Sincerely,

Kathy Fisher and the Flagler Estates Concerned Citizens.

RE: Flagler Estates

Tuesday, September 29, 2009 4:49 PM

From:

"Mandrup-Poulsen, Jan" Jan.Mandrup-Poulsen@dep.state.fl.us

Good afternoon!

I do recall Mr. Kelter making mention of a “sniff test,” but at the time I thought he was making an attempt to convey the sense of what happens when soils rich in hydrogen sulfide are disturbed. I did not consider his statement to be one about a quantifiable test, but merely to say soils rich in organic matter (which consume oxygen) smell of “rotten eggs” when there is no longer any oxygen left. With regard to Flagler Estates, one of the things that needs to be considered is how to best keep organic-rich sediments from getting into the waters of the state in the process of doing road work or constructing flood control projects. Best Management Practices (BMPs) are available and should be used routinely.

We received our first e-mail communication from Mr. Kelter on June 26, in response to our notice of the upcoming public workshops for the Total Maximum Daily Load report, that were held in your area on July 9^th. We continued to get materials from him off and on following the workshop, but apparently some of the key materials he wished to get to us either were not sent, or could not be received due to the size of the files. I do believe Mr. Kelter continued to work diligently right up to the time of the adoption hearing trying to locate files, but we did not successfully receive them until September 1^st. I have attached copies of the last two e-mails from Mr. Kelter prior to the hearing, indicating we had gotten some of his materials back in July, but not the ones germane to the question on jurisdiction.

Due to the volume of materials being exchanged through ftp sites, our site is purged 7 days after posting.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Jan Mandrup-Poulsen, Administrator

Watershed Evaluation and TMDL Section

What is hydrogen sulfide?

Hydrogen sulfide (H₂S) occurs naturally in crude petroleum, natural gas, volcanic gases, and hot springs. It can also result from bacterial breakdown of organic matter. It is also produced by human and animal wastes. Bacteria found in your mouth and gastrointestinal tract produce hydrogen sulfide from bacteria decomposing materials that contain vegetable or animal proteins. Hydrogen sulfide can also result from industrial activities, such as food processing, coke ovens, kraft paper mills, tanneries, and petroleum refineries.

Hydrogen sulfide is a flammable, colorless gas with a characteristic odor of rotten eggs. It is commonly known as hydrosulfuric acid, sewer gas, and stink damp. People can smell it at low levels.

The Department of Environmental Protection values your feedback as a customer. DEP Secretary Michael W. Sole is committed to continuously assessing and improving the level and quality of services provided to you. Please take a few minutes to comment on the quality of service you received. Simply click on this link to the DEP Customer Survey. Thank you in advance for completing the survey.

Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 2:31 PM
To: Mandrup-Poulsen, Jan
Subject: Flagler Estates

Greetings again from Flagler Estates!

Forgive me for again approaching you with so many questions.  The Flagler Estates Road and Water Control District tends to be less than forthcoming with information, causing us to seek information from other sources.

In our last correspondence, I inquired about a "Sniff Test".  Mr. Kelter referred to it at the September 3, 2009 meeting in Tallahassee.  He was talking about an alternate explanation for our low dissolved oxygen levels aside from Nitrogen and Phosphorus levels.  He also mentioned and interchanged the terms sulfite and sulfate.  Can you tell me what this Sniff Test is and how it is quantified?  My resources are not familiar with it.  I have requested copies of the documentation sent to DEP about this matter.  My information request has not been met by the District as of yet.

This question may be redundant. The District Staff claims they sent DEP their information approximately two weeks prior to the September 3rd Meeting.  The documentation from your office, as well as the conversation on the recording of the September 3rd meeting, indicates information reached your office on September 1st, 2009. The DEP Attorney received the information on September 2nd, necessitating the delay on the decision until September 8th. Did the FERWCD send you the information 2 weeks prior or 2 days prior to September 3rd, 2009?

In your e-mail on September 1st from Mr. Kelter, he speaks of posting information to your ftp site.  WBID 2589 DEP Hearing Information.  Mr. Kelter states "For you information and reading pleasure, we also posted a pdf copy of our District's Water Control Plan".  I have been unable to get to this information on your website.  Can you tell me if the FERWCD Water Control Plan is the older, valid one or the one submitted by Mr. Kelter in June of 2008 that has not been approved or accepted by the Board nor has it undergone a second Public Hearing?

Please know that the residents of Flagler Estates are glad for any accurate information we can find and grateful for your insight. We allso appreciate that your time is quite valuable.
Sincerely,
Kathy Fisher and the Flagler Estates Concerned Citizens.

Forwarded Message: RE: WBID 2589 Comments (Sixteen Mile Creek)

RE: WBID 2589 Comments (Sixteen Mile Creek)

Friday, August 21, 2009 7:58 AM

From:

"Mike Kelter PE" <mkelter@bellsouth.net>

To:

"Mandrup-Poulsen, Jan" <Jan.Mandrup-Poulsen@dep.state.fl.us>

Cc:

"Cliff Scheiner" <cscheiner@windstream.net>, "George Nelson " <ghostine2@bellsouth.net>, "Jackie VanHorn" <jlvanhorn@windstream.net>, "Magley, Wayne" <Wayne.Magley@dep.state.fl.us>, "Jackie VanHorn" <jlvanhorn@windstream.net>, "Rusty Castleberry" <rcastleberry0@gmail.com>, "Wayne Flowers" <Wflowers@llw-law.com>, "Seth O'Connell" <sethcpa@bellsouth.net>, "Press Tompkins" <htompkins@co.st-johns.fl.us>, jstephenson@co.st-johns.fl.us, pmccormack@co.st-johns.fl.us, "Mike Davis, P.E." <mdavis79@comcast.net>, "Diane Brace" <dbrace@bellsouth.net>... more

Good morning Jan,

I hope you had a good vacation.

After July 21, 2009 my staff and the District staff got caught up in some other pressing issues.

I had a conversation with Wayne Magley sometime around July 21, 2009 regarding some of the things I wanted to discuss in Part 3. Those things specifically dealt with Sixteen Mile Creek’s function as part of the stormwater system. Based on what I heard Wayne telling me, I decided not to expend anymore District funds on that issue.

However, in the process of dealing with the other pressing issues mentioned above, District staff ran across some documents that seem to have a lot to do with what I wish now had been submitted as Part 3. Specifically, we found documents sent by the Department of Natural Resources, the Department of Pollution Control, and the Board of Trustees of the Internal Improvements Trust Fund pertaining to permissions granted to construct Sixteen Mile Creek in 1973. These files came into my possession on August 6, 2009. We reviewed the documents with respect to the other pressing issues we were dealing with, but it wasn’t until this past Tuesday that it occurred to me that these documents might be of some importance to you and your staff as your wrestle with the TMDL issues on Sixteen Mile Creek. That is when we asked for a public hearing.

On Wednesday I asked Mr. Flowers to review some of what we found. I appreciate that you took the time to talk with Mr. Flowers. Everybody I work with in the public sector in Northeast Florida has a great deal of respect for, and places great trust in, Mr. Flowers. He is a good and honorable man.

Based on our discussions with Mr. Flowers, we are putting together a package of additional information. Our goal is to get this information to you at least one week prior to the September 3, 2009 public hearing, so that your staff has time to review the information. The package will include autocad files with the boundary depictions of the MS4s in the WBID, copies of the Plan of Reclamation, copies of new documents that we have discovered, and some other technical observations.

What we sent you in Parts 1 and 2 were put together in haste so that we could help meet the deadlines you are facing. We got answers to some of our questions on July 17, 2009 and we scrambled throughout the weekend to try to craft useful comments by July 20. Haste is not always good in these matters. I hope that we can square up some of the comments that we put together in a short period of time.

We appreciate the efforts you have made to date to work with St. Johns County and FERWCD. We look forward to meeting with you on September 3, 2009.

Mike Kelter, P.E.

Legacy Civil Engineers, Inc

630 Myrtle Avenue

Green Cove Springs, FL 32043

Office: (904) 284-8103

Cell: (904) 338-4284

From: Mandrup-Poulsen, Jan [mailto:Jan.Mandrup-Poulsen@dep.state.fl.us]
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 1:52 PM
To: Mike Kelter PE
Cc: Cliff Scheiner ; George Nelson ; Jackie VanHorn ; Magley, Wayne
Subject: RE: WBID 2589 Comments (Sixteen Mile Creek)

Hi Mike,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you on this request. I was on annual leave all last week and am still trying to catch up on the backlog.

I believe these are the only other comment letters we received for Sixteen Mile Creek. Attached, as a Word document, are our responses to St Johns County .

Any luck in finding a way to get the added materials to us (see your letter of July 21, attached)? Also, we are acting under the assumption that you ended your comments with your Part 2 submittal, as I don’t believe we got your intended Part 3.

Based on your suggestion, I believe we were able to phrase the proposed TMDL rule language to provide the protection you were seeking regarding getting credit, where credit is due. Thanks for help.

Jan

The Department of Environmental Protection values your feedback as a customer. DEP Secretary Michael W. Sole is committed to continuously assessing and improving the level and quality of services provided to you. Please take a few minutes to comment on the quality of service you received. Simply click on this link to the DEP Customer Survey. Thank you in advance for completing the survey.

From: Mike Kelter PE [mailto: mkelter@bellsouth.net ]
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 9:03 AM
To: Mandrup-Poulsen, Jan
Cc: ' Cliff Scheiner '; ' George Nelson '; ' Jackie VanHorn '
Subject: WBID 2589 Comments (Sixteen Mile Creek)

Good morning Jan,

I have received your response to comments sent to FDEP on the referenced TMDL. We are reviewing your responses.

Please send us copies of responses that you have made to all TMDL comments on the Sixteen Mile Creek from all other parties who have commented, so that we can review those as well.

Thanks,

Mike Kelter, P.E.

Legacy Civil Engineers, Inc

630 Myrtle Avenue

Green Cove Springs, FL 32043

Office: (904) 284-8103

Cell: (904) 338-4284

Forwarded Message: RE: ftp site for Mr. Kelter

RE: ftp site for Mr. Kelter

Tuesday, September 1, 2009 11:08 AM

From:

"Mike Kelter PE" <mkelter@bellsouth.net>

To:

"Mandrup-Poulsen, Jan" <Jan.Mandrup-Poulsen@dep.state.fl.us>

Cc:

jackievanhorn@bellsouth.net, "District Manager" <jlvanhorn@windstream.net>, "Russell Castleberry" <rcastleberry0@gmail.com>, "Wayne Flowers" <wflowers@llw-law.com>, "Seth O'Connell" <sethcpa@bellsouth.net>, cscheiner@windstream.net, "Press Tompkins" <htompkins@co.st-johns.fl.us>, jstephenson@co.st-johns.fl.us... more

Jan,

I have posted on your ftp site, a pdf file pertaining to WBID 2589 named WBID 2589 DEP Hearing Information.pdf. We created a folder on that site named “WBID 2589”. The file pertaining to items we would like to discuss on Thursday. We have also posted a cad file pertaining to the WBID boundaries. These boundaries are also shown in the document WBID 2589 DEP Hearing Information.pdf. For you information and reading pleasure, we also posted a pdf copy of our District’s Water Control Plan.

We appreciate your efforts on this TMDL to date and look forward to working with you further later this week and in the near future.

Regards,

Mike Kelter, P.E.

Legacy Civil Engineers, Inc

630 Myrtle Avenue

Green Cove Springs, FL 32043

Office: (904) 284-8103

Cell: (904) 338-4284

From: Mandrup-Poulsen, Jan [mailto:Jan.Mandrup-Poulsen@dep.state.fl.us]
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 7:20 AM
To: Mike Kelter PE
Subject: FW: ftp site for Mr. Kelter

Hi Mike,

I was able to track down someone to create a home for your materials. Please let me know when they have been posted.

Jan

From: Gao, Xueqing
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 5:53 PM
To: 'mkelter@bellsouth.net'
Cc: Mandrup-Poulsen, Jan
Subject: ftp site for Mr. Kelter

Hello Mr. Kelter,

Per Jan’s request, I created a folder on our incoming ftp site. The address of the ftp site is:

ftp://ftp.dep.state.fl.us/pub/incoming/Materials from Mike Kelter/

You can used the Windows Explorer to enter the ftp site and post your materials. This is a ftp site opening to the public so no password/userID are needed to post materials. Please try this one out and let us know if you have any difficulty to post your materials. Thanks!

Xueqing Gao

Environmental Manager

Watershed Evaluation and TMDL Section

Florida Department of Environmental Protection

Web Hosting by Yahoo!

Flagler Estates Concerned Citizens, Inc.
Hastings, FL 32145
Administrator@flaglerestatesconcernedcitizens.org